What is a clone, and what isnt?

[KeeganJohnson92]

Ok guys. Ive been reading into engines a lot lately. What i mostly am wanting to learn in this thread, is wether or not the american branded ohv motors that look a heck of a lot like clones are clones or not, or wether i can get performance parts. So like Briggs i know the intek is related to the animal, but they still look like hondas to me. I take it that they, and the predator, have changed the design enough to use at least some different parts. But what about the vanguard 6.5 and the 950 series? They look like hondas to me too. Whats the difference? And how about the 250cc 1150 series? Its the largest small block, looks like a clone, and so i figure it would make a good build. Cant seem to find parts for anything but the 5hp, intek/animal, and 305. Basically im asking if anyone knows if clone parts or animal parts fit these engines, also i noticed a 6.5 tech on a snowblower the other day and it looked like a clone too. The angled cyl and 3 dipsticks are dead giveaways imo, but for all i know they could take totally different size bearings, seals, etc etc. So if someone here could school me or point me to the information needed that would be awesome

 

[mckutzy]

Briggs are Briggs... Honda's are Honda's... Tekishema' are tekishema's...

They all have similarities, but none are really compatible with each other..
Clones are copy's of the Honda verity... Some earlier versions(greyhound brand?) were direct copies... Derps are not, some Honda parts interchange depending on the model...

 

[landuse]

The old blue Greyhound Harbour Freight engines were Honda clones

 

[Tpdingo]

Almost anything labeled "196cc" is a direct honda clone.

 

[mckutzy]

Unfortunately none as of yet..has fully compiled a full list of direct copies and such..

 

[itsid]

Unfortunately none as of yet..has fully compiled a full list of direct copies and such..

Since that unfortunately is IMPOSSIBLE..
new brands emerge every other day, older ones vanish
And worst of all.. those are just brands...
labels the manufacturer
[let's call our fictive manufacturer "Robo"]
puts on their engines since some company
[Say our ficitve company is called "horror fright"]
orders a severe amount of engines
and "to stand out" wants them to be relabelled with a certain name,
[Let's call it "proletarian"]
maybe painted in a specific color and asks for some other minor cosmetical changes to NOT look like the original engine.

That works, as long as the contract between horror fright and robo persists.
BUT 'we' have no guarantee that horror fright doesn't change it's mind and asks another fictive manufacturer [let's call it "Lefun"]
to build the "proletarian" labelled engines from now on with more or less similarly outlined specs.
Which is certainly possible.

Kohler, Honda, Briggs&Stratton, Subaru/Robin, Tecumseh..
original engines!

CLONES are more often than not direct clones of a Honda,
since they're the godfathers of all industrial engines for good reason.

Anywhoo, some companies spread out and make (apart from true clones)
other clones by mixing in some Kohler-specifications sometimes
even Subaru's (although seldomly) and if I'm not mistaking there were 208cc clones spotted,
which appear to have the bore/stroke taken from a Briggs...

It's terrible to say the least.
IF you buy a clone, ignore name brands!
(Ducar, Predator, Greyhound etc.pp.)
THEY ALL are just labels (Ducars are most likely Lifan engines as were Greyhounds for all I know... true clones [i.e. most Honda parts fit])
the Predator is a 212 Rato engine (started as a Honda clone with Kohler crank and piston if I'm not mistaking and evolved over time to feature some other parts as well)

Find the source .. the actual manufacturer and then you can make an educated guess about compatibility..

BUT still, in order to be sure you must check for yourself!
since chances are a slightly different case can render your gasket kit useless, slightly cheaper parts may or may not be to Honda's specs
and will cause issues...

So there is no wildcard you can blindly rely on...

'sid

 

[Panhead5496]

Almost anything labeled "196cc" is a direct honda clone.

Really?? Never thought about it. So the 196cc Baja warrior engine is a Honda clone?

 

[KeeganJohnson92]

Thanks guys. I was hoping to find a Briggs i could toss cheap.clone parts at. Sounds like i may as well just buy a clone that i know will be compatible and paint it red and black and throw a briggs logo on the pullcord. Haha. Nobody wil be the wiser. The Inteks are tempting, but it seems you are better off with an Animal for the better bearings even though other parts fit. And thats out of the price range for what will just be powering a little kart for my kids. Probably governed to 10mph for awhile. Im wanting upgraded parts avaliabilty for future use and durability more than max power in this case. Hmm. Maybe ill offer my parents a clone for their tiller and use the 5hp briggs on this project haha. It would certainly suffice. It hasnt ran in a few years, i think it needs a new carb or rebuild. But to me thats half the fun anyways! I also found a fc420v on the old mower i think will kick butt on my vertical shaft project for me to ride! I like that it has pressure lube as i plan on flogging it hard!

---------- Post added at 12:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:33 PM ----------

My orifinal post i had other plans in mind. But now im building 2 separate karts so i dont have to compromise between safe for the kids and fast for me. Just to clarify. I was going to split the difference and build a 7-8hp everyone could ride. But i decided a 5-7hp for the kids is plenty, and 14 with a ragb and a tq convertersounds better for me

---------- Post added at 12:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:37 PM ----------

It is really a mess though. I started comparing specs and my head hurts already. I have a fairly good feeling that a little machine work could make it possible for most of these, as the main differences seem to be bore and stroke, and im guessing the design of the crank and bearings, as well as cam size and material seems to be the main differences. I have a local shop that could hand it, but for the money i may as well buy an animal. Im fairly sure Briggs does that on purpose or everyone would just buy the cheap 950 series and slap on animal parts. That said, i havent even heard of anyone trying who documented it, so who knows? If i spot a steal on one im going to experiment with it in the future. For now i think ill keep it simple.

 

[Kansaskart]

Just simplify all this. Kids 212 predator with governor and throttled back. You, depends how big and heavy kart is? Unless its a heavy off-road type thing, an adult can get by with a 212 predator with no governor and an $80 carb / exhaust kit. I have one on a standard kart frame and it goes around 42mph and I weigh 250lbs. Plus super easy to set up.

I'm also doing what you mentioned with another kart, the whole big hp, ragb thing but it's a big kart with big tires plus it's just a setup I always wanted to try and I already have everything for it. Unless you're kart is more like a buggy the whole ragb thing isn't worth it just imo. Still not much better on top end but the extra torque is good for weight.

 

[bob58o]

Kids kart,
1 Predator 212 with 1 30 series TAV-2 ~$170

Adult kart,
2 Predator 212's with 2 30 series TAV-2's ~$350

Or
420cc with 40 series Torque Converter -$450 - 550