Steal on a Ducar 212

[Rat]

I found a Ducar 212 for $150. From what I understand and can find for an average NIB sale price this is a steal for a running Ducar.

No upgrades beyond linkage, 20 hours on the clock or less, and with any luck it's mine come Friday.

 

[BrownStainRacing]

I found a Ducar 212 for $150. From what I understand and can find for an average NIB sale price this is a steal for a running Ducar.

No upgrades beyond linkage, 20 hours on the clock or less, and with any luck it's mine come Friday.

That is a steal!!!!

In COMPLETE stock form, right outta the box, it peaks HP around 4800-4900 rpm, but it has no problem hitting 5300 with the stock muffler, airbox, filter and the governor still working.

Peak torq comes in around 3300, and you can feel it pulling hard up to peak HP.

I've sold a few, built a few, it's a great engine. It's only around 8.3:1 CR, but sure acts like it's got more, .

It comes with a ruixing carb. After break in, I install a .018"-.022" low speed jet, and up the main to .031"- .035", depends on the stall rpm and weight it needs to pull.

The 1st 6, I torn down checking clearances, they all were spot on, except the ignition timing was 24*-26*, but still runs very good right outta the box.

I hope the owner didn't booger with the governor for you.

Congrats, you will like it.

 

[Rat]

Well it seems he was a track racer and is leaving the game... selling off engines, tires (Burris and Cobra), and race karts.

Black akra clone engine build by swim racing engines - 1 race since new $1000
Red NKA clone engine built by swim racing engines - brand new never raced $1000
Red NKA clone engine fresh rebuild not been run since rebuilt - $800
Black AKRA clone engine 4 races since rebuilt - $400
Black AkRA clone engine fresh rebuild $ 800
2 box stock predator engines $100 a piece
1 box stock ducar engine $150

I’m done racing just don’t have time for it anymore go karts and all are forsale
WILL NOT SHIP

Here comes the barrage of questions

Is it worth bumping the compression any? I'd rather stay in a range to still use 87.

Are there any quirks or is it relatively bulletproof?

Does it have an FT piston like a Ped Hemi, or dished like just about every stock wedge?

Is the flywheel taper a specific oddball like the Hemi predator being different from a wedge? Supposedly they come with a PVL stock which means it is a little more race ready than I like since I am more for street brutes than track toys.

Is the case designed to allow a charging system under the flywheel?

Would a Dover coil be of any benefit? I'm guessing not if they can spin upwards of 5k with the governor still in play.

That is a steal!!!!

Thought it looked that way, I need a word of your experience on what could use upgraded and what should be left alone. It doesn't seem like there's much room for improvement overall beyond maybe a port cleaning, exhaust, and maybe a billet rod.

Seeing as it IS a Hemi, I'll most likely end up grabbing an 18cc wedge to build for it starting with champion rockers, 22# or 24# springs depending on what it has and if they'll swap over to a wedge okay.

With a 5k+ governor it might be the first and only one I don't gut out.

 

[BrownStainRacing]

Well it seems he was a track racer and is leaving the game... selling off engines, tires (Burris and Cobra), and race karts.

Black akra clone engine build by swim racing engines - 1 race since new $1000
Red NKA clone engine built by swim racing engines - brand new never raced $1000
Red NKA clone engine fresh rebuild not been run since rebuilt - $800
Black AKRA clone engine 4 races since rebuilt - $400
Black AkRA clone engine fresh rebuild $ 800
2 box stock predator engines $100 a piece
1 box stock ducar engine $150

I’m done racing just don’t have time for it anymore go karts and all are forsale
WILL NOT SHIP

Here comes the barrage of questions

Is it worth bumping the compression any? I'd rather stay in a range to still use 87.

Are there any quirks or is it relatively bulletproof?

Does it have an FT piston like a Ped Hemi, or dished like just about every stock wedge?

Is the flywheel taper a specific oddball like the Hemi predator being different from a wedge? Supposedly they come with a PVL stock which means it is a little more race ready than I like since I am more for street brutes than track toys.

Is the case designed to allow a charging system under the flywheel?

Would a Dover coil be of any benefit? I'm guessing not if they can spin upwards of 5k with the governor still in play.


Thought it looked that way, I need a word of your experience on what could use upgraded and what should be left alone. It doesn't seem like there's much room for improvement overall beyond maybe a port cleaning, exhaust, and maybe a billet rod.

Seeing as it IS a Hemi, I'll most likely end up grabbing an 18cc wedge to build for it starting with champion rockers, 22# or 24# springs depending on what it has and if they'll swap over okay. Idk though I might leave the Hemi head and just work the valve cover (smooth and polish) just because it looks nicer without the OHV across it and rubbed shiny.

With a 5k+ governor it might be the first and only one I don't gut out.

I can get to the main details tomorrow.

Most box stock racers take care of their stuff, plenty of oil and air filter changes, usally the good stuff.

20 hrs aint nothing, jus barely broke in, IMHO.

Here's the stock outta the box parts.

Racing Cams and Parts | Genuine OEM Parts for Reliable Performance and Quality | DynoCams

Choose authentic OEM parts for your vehicle, ensuring the highest level of quality, performance, and reliability. Explore our wide selection of original equipment manufacturer parts for a perfect fit and peace of mind.

www.dynocams.com

The wrist pin is the only thing that's not clone size, but a good builder will replace the rod, piston, rings and pin anyways. Clones sizes are the same price, then you can pick a ft or dished piston, and whatever rod length your build calls for.

I get with you later, its been a long day for me.

 

[Rat]

I can get to the main details tomorrow.

Most box stock racers rake care of th

He said aside from the linkage it has nothing done to it

 

[BrownStainRacing]

He said aside from the linkage it has nothing done to it

I didn't realize I f "d" that up. I was jus typing away.

I catch you tomorrow.

 

[Rat]

I did some info digging (because that's what I do) and it seems dynocams is directly involved with the R&D of them... if these are actually factory specs...FUUUUQ Me running.

Ducar 212
Engine Type:Single cylinder, 4-stroke, air cooling, HEMI OHV
Displacement:212cc
Bore:70mm
Stroke:54.94mm
Valve Size IN/EX:27mm/24mm
Billet PVL Flywheel

Cast Iron Cylinder Sleeve
Dual Ball Bearing Block
Ducar Hemi Head
Ruixing .615 Carb
Electronic Ignition
Chrome Faced Top Ring
Hardened Dished Valves
EZ Pull-Start Design

Another notable discovery is that they DO in fact have the posts for a charging system, and...

The crank is a 212 stroke with a Honda 196 clone flywheel taper.

 

[BrownStainRacing]

I did some info digging (because that's what I do) and it seems dynocams is directly involved with the R&D of them... if these are actually factory specs...FUUUUQ Me running.

Ducar 212
Engine Type:Single cylinder, 4-stroke, air cooling, HEMI OHV
Displacement:212cc
Bore:70mm
Stroke:54.94mm
Valve Size IN/EX:27mm/24mm
Billet PVL Flywheel

Cast Iron Cylinder Sleeve
Dual Ball Bearing Block
Ducar Hemi Head
Ruixing .615 Carb
Electronic Ignition
Chrome Faced Top Ring
Hardened Dished Valves
EZ Pull-Start Design

Another notable discovery is that they DO in fact have the posts for a charging system, and...

The crank is a 212 stroke with a Honda 196 clone flywheel taper.

Yea, dyno cams is probably the #1 distributor for ducar. That's the only place I get em from.

I'd say the linkage change done, is a throttle kit.

Those box stockers usally run different engines on the same kart set up and use a quick change throttle assembly to make changes quicker.

Most race kart suppliers have thier own style kits, here's what dyno cams uses mostly.

Racing Cams and Parts | Quik Link Throttle Kit, Ducar 212, Predator | CL-PE118B | DynoCams

Explore a World of Parts: Find the Components You Need for Your Projects. From Mechanical to Electronic, Discover a Vast Selection of High-Quality Parts to Fuel Your Creativity. | CL-PE118B

www.dynocams.com

I use the "tuck & run" on the ducar 224, but it's for non governored engines.

Racing Cams and Parts | Throttle Kit Without Governor | DUCAR-TK | DynoCams

Explore a World of Parts: Find the Components You Need for Your Projects. From Mechanical to Electronic, Discover a Vast Selection of High-Quality Parts to Fuel Your Creativity. | DUCAR-TK

www.dynocams.com

The 1st ducar 212 I got, I put about 50 hrs on it, then gave it to my youngest son, he put another 100hrs or so, then I rebuilt it.

Its got a 14cc head, .615" bored SA carb, cm cam, but still using the same stock rod, piston and crank. Still running the governor at 5400 rpm max. He's gotta have over 300 hrs on it now

It's a hoss of a mini bike, running a 4.54:1 gear, 20" rear tire, and 3600 rpm stall springs.

 

[Rat]

Looks like a Dynocams one to me. Idk

 

[Rat]

Yea, dyno cams is probably the #1 distributor for ducar. That's the only place I get em from.

I'd say the linkage change done, is a throttle kit.

Those box stockers usally run different engines on the same kart set up and use a quick change throttle assembly to make changes quicker.

Most race kart suppliers have thier own style kits, here's what dyno cams uses mostly.

Racing Cams and Parts | Quik Link Throttle Kit, Ducar 212, Predator | CL-PE118B | DynoCams

Explore a World of Parts: Find the Components You Need for Your Projects. From Mechanical to Electronic, Discover a Vast Selection of High-Quality Parts to Fuel Your Creativity. | CL-PE118B

www.dynocams.com

I use the "tuck & run" on the ducar 224, but it's for non governored engines.

Racing Cams and Parts | Throttle Kit Without Governor | DUCAR-TK | DynoCams

Explore a World of Parts: Find the Components You Need for Your Projects. From Mechanical to Electronic, Discover a Vast Selection of High-Quality Parts to Fuel Your Creativity. | DUCAR-TK

www.dynocams.com

View attachment 144774
View attachment 144776
The 1st ducar 212 I got, I put about 50 hrs on it, then gave it to my youngest son, he put another 100hrs or so, then I rebuilt it.

Its got a 14cc head, .615" bored SA carb, cm cam, but still using the same stock rod, piston and crank. Still running the governor at 5400 rpm max. He's gotta have over 300 hrs on it now

It's a hoss of a mini bike, running a 4.54:1 gear, 20" rear tire, and 3600 rpm stall springs.

So a Ducar has enough balls to make exception to the 6:1 rule?

I think a 14cc head might be a bit excessive since I don't have access to non ethanol fuel, and would be stuck running 87.

Anyway I'm waiting for the do and don't roster

 

[BrownStainRacing]

So a Ducar has enough balls to make exception to the 6:1 rule?

I think a 14cc head might be a bit excessive since I don't have access to non ethanol fuel, and would be stuck running 87.

Anyway I'm waiting for the do and don't roster

Try it out stock the way it is now. It's gonna surprise you.

When the box stockers run Ducars with the predators, they have to turn the Ducar DOWN to 5000 rpm, and turn the predator UP to 5000 rpm.

That right there should tell you, it's ALOT better build engine. It's got all the right parts combo to get it done and last.

If i was you, I would leave it the way it is, and run it, test it and you will see how it performs in stock form.

Box stockers can only change the main jet in the carb, usally way too freaking rich for up/down throttle, they dont worry about the low side, since even under a yellow flag they have the engine up on the cam and right in the powerband, jus waiting on the green to come back out.

I bet if you look, it's still got the stock .045" thick head gasket on it.

The only thing it really needs is a .018"- .024" head gasket. The piston is setting .010" - .015" in the hole at TDC, so a 18-24 thou gasket would be perfectly fine and get the CR up to around 9:1, I'd have to do the math, but 9:1 sounds bout right, with that dished piston and 20-21cc hemi head, I forget the exact cc, but it's not 22 like the pred hemi head.

Install a short header 6-8" long, .880-.890" ID, with a open muffler.

Mild port work in the head, the valves dont need unshrouding, it's a hemi,

2800-3000 rpm stall springs in the driver

Add a good bored SA carb from Dover or RPQ, and you won't need a 6:1 gear.

Maybe this weekend, I'll throw that .675" RPQ carb on this 212, and see if it'll yank up outta the hole, and jump slidewayz from a dead stop,

 

[Rat]

Try it out stock the way it is now. It's gonna surprise you.

When the box stockers run Ducars with the predators, they have to turn the Ducar DOWN to 5000 rpm, and turn the predator UP to 5000 rpm.

That right there should tell you, it's ALOT better build engine. It's got all the right parts combo to get it done and last.

If i was you, I would leave it the way it is, and run it, test it and you will see how it performs in stock form.

Box stockers can only change the main jet in the carb, usally way too freaking rich for up/down throttle, they dont worry about the low side, since even under a yellow flag they have the engine up on the cam and right in the powerband, jus waiting on the green to come back out.

I bet if you look, it's still got the stock .045" thick head gasket on it.

The only thing it really needs is a .018"- .024" head gasket. The piston is setting .010" - .015" in the hole at TDC, so a 18-24 thou gasket would be perfectly fine and get the CR up to around 9:1, I'd have to do the math, but 9:1 sounds bout right, with that dished piston and 20-21cc hemi head, I forget the exact cc, but it's not 22 like the pred hemi head.

Install a short header 6-8" long, .880-.890" ID, with a open muffler.

Mild port work in the head, the valves dont need unshrouding, it's a hemi,

2800-3000 rpm stall springs in the driver

Add a good bored SA carb from Dover or RPQ, and you won't need a 6:1 gear.

Maybe this weekend, I'll throw that .675" RPQ carb on this 212, and see if it'll yank up outta the hole, and jump slidewayz from a dead stop,

You're gonna break something... probably yourself.

It looks to me that an FT slug or a +0.10 rod would be an ideal upgrade.

I noticed the valve cover isn't aluminum like the Predator Hemi is. The bolt holes are positioned way different and looks to be common with a Tilly

 

[BrownStainRacing]

You're gonna break something... probably yourself.

It looks to me that an FT slug or a +0.10 rod would be an ideal upgrade.

I noticed the valve cover isn't aluminum like the Predator Hemi is. The bolt holes are positioned way different and looks to be common with a Tilly

You are right, thats a totally different hemi head then the pred hemi.

The valves are closer together in the Ducar/tilly head. It's a way better head then the pred hemi.

I really hate that valve cover gasket.

 

[Rat]

You are right, thats a totally different hemi head then the pred hemi.

The valves are closer together in the Ducar/tilly head. It's a way better head then the pred hemi.

I really hate that valve cover gasket.

I'm guessing being closer together has them tilted in the head more Despite the 27/24 sizing.

I tend to end up making my own gaskets after the factory ones goes bad.

I'll definitely play with it as is and decide further what to do (assuming the exhaust box won't be in the way)

Most likely It will get re-piped, FT, and head swapped for an 18cc wedge with 27/25 valves ChampionHD rockers, and the rest if the head dressings.

I'd assume it has at least 22# springs with split keepers with that 5300 rpm governor

 

[BrownStainRacing]

I'm guessing being closer together has them tilted in the head more Despite the 27/24 sizing.

I tend to end up making my own after the factory one goes bad.

I'll definitely play with it as is and decide further what to do (assuming the exhaust box won't be in the way)

Most likely It will get re-piped, FT, and head swapped for an 18cc wedge with 27/25 valves ChampionHD rockers, and the rest if the head dressings.

I'd assume it has at least 22# springs with split keepers with that 5300 rom governor

A good pipe never hurt any thing.

Most mini bikers around here has to take the stock muffler off for clearance under the seat.

Save it tho, it's a better muffler then other 212's and 196's.

I think I might have some old stock ducar 212 springs, they're more then 10.8#, but less then 18#, the wire is bigger diameter then the stock 10.8#., and jus a hair taller.

Jus adding that 18cc head will really wake it up.

When I gotta do a hemi to non hemi head swap, I'm usally putting in a new cam too. So new clone lifters and new clone stock length push rods.

The hemi head uses different length lifters and pushrods.

 

[Rat]

A good pipe never hurt any thing.

Most mini bikers around here has to take the stock muffler off for clearance under the seat.

Save it tho, it's a better muffler then other 212's and 196's.

I think I might have some old stock ducar 212 springs, they're more then 10.8#, but less then 18#, the wire is bigger diameter then the stock 10.8#., and jus a hair taller.

Jus adding that 18cc head will really wake it up.

When I gotta do a hemi to non hemi head swap, I'm usally putting in a new cam too. So new clone lifters and new clone stock length push rods.

The hemi head uses different length lifters and pushrods.

The junk Predator212 I have is an oddball that has more in common with a wedge than a Hemi... it's an original one probably first gen.

So I already knew the rods would be too short for a head swap. I didn't know the lifters would be too.
I figured I'd just get a complete head and rods, massage the ports a little bit, and toss in heavier springs and split keepers.

I don't figure on swapping the cam, the one in it is good for more RPM than I'm looking for, and I will most likely end up putting a Honda Flywheel on in favor of a charging system anyway.

That PVL doesn't impress me much and it certainly doesn't suit my usage needs.

I'm only after it because of quality, I prefer to build mean sleepers, not track toys.

 

[BrownStainRacing]

The junk Predator212 I have is an oddball that has more in common with a wedge than a Hemi... it's an original one probably first gen.

So I already knew the rods would be too short for a head swap. I didn't know the lifters would be too.
I figured I'd just get a complete head and rods, massage the ports a little bit, and toss in heavier springs and split keepers.

I don't figure on swapping the cam, the one in it is good for more RPM than I'm looking for, and I will most likely end up putting a Honda Flywheel on in favor of a charging system anyway.

That PVL doesn't impress me much and it certainly doesn't suit my usage needs.

I'm only after it because of quality, I prefer to build mean sleepers, not track toys.

I've sold 4 or 5 that the customers wanted to run the head light, so I would swap out the pvl for a flywheel off a stock 196 with lighting coils, turn em down to 4200 rpm max, they still make plenty of pulling power at that rpm.

Then I never see em riding at night,

I like the pvl. It will make the engine run cooler, I have to add tape to get temp up.

The 1 on my mini has been on 5 or 6 different builds, still holds without a key. I think it has a 2016 or 17 date on it.

I don't see you having any problems with your set up and that engine.

When you get it, pull that plug, those guys like to run em pig rich for some reason.

With only 20 hrs, the guy might not have got around to changing the main jet yet.

Those valve springs are heavier then other stock engines.

Racing Cams and Parts | Valve Spring, DUCAR 212 | 212-1055 | DynoCams

DUCAR 212 OEM Valve Spring Intake and Exhaust. 16-18 lb. installed pressure. | 212-1055

www.dynocams.com

 

[Rat]

I've decided I'm going to go get it this evening
I asked about a few things
Nothing done but run... no rejet, no gov delete or adjustments, does not come with a clutch.

Assuming this engine is as nasty as its reputation perhaps a 40 series is in order... my built 208 certainly makes enough power to run one, but 3/4 are not easy to find and I've been warned not to trust shaft shims

 

[BrownStainRacing]

I've decided I'm going to go get it this evening
I asked about a few things
Nothing done but run... no rejet, no gov delete or adjustments, does not come with a clutch.

Assuming this engine is as nasty as its reputation perhaps a 40 series is in order... my built 208 certainly makes enough power to run one, but 3/4 are not easy to find and I've been warned not to trust shaft shims

No need for a 40 series, 30 handles more then some think they will.

 

[Rat]

No need for a 40 series, 30 handles more then some think they will.

That much I already knew lol. They may be rated UP TO 8hp, but they can actually handle up to 15hp being thrown out of a built engine. Besides it's the torque that will mangle them anyway.

I'm just sitting here waiting on this guy to show up, I'm early at the drop off